By Carl W. Roden (esq) ~ The man the Deniers fear the most.
I address this one to those who oppose the continued display of our Southern Cross banner, and condemn those of us who make the "horrible sin" of honoring it and the good memories of our honored Southern dead.
Click here to continue. http://mybacksass.blogspot.com/p/a-simple-challenge-by-carl-w.html
Any who wishes to answer the challenge can do so in the comment section following this post.
If there are no objections from anyone I have posted the links on Cold Southern Steel. Any replies I get I will direct here.
ReplyDeleteGreat, though I doubt either you or I (or, more accurately, Carl) will get any replies. Possibly Bakur or Corey, but they won't answer the challenge, they'll just bellyache.
ReplyDeleteSeems like I read that Corey Myers has closed down his blog. Just can't remember where I read it at.
DeleteBaker is on my blog and has responded to my latest post"Just Wondering" but so far he has refused to take the challenge.
I've posted a link as well, they can't say they didn't see it !
ReplyDeleteThe following comment, and my reply, appears on the comment thread following the Simple Challenge page. http://mybacksass.blogspot.com/p/a-simple-challenge-by-carl-w.html
ReplyDeleteMy reply follows in a separate comment.
You will note that Mr. Denbow did not even attempt to answer the challenge.
==========
Carl Denbow May 6, 2014 at 7:10 AM
Let me ask you a question or two: Can a neo-Nazi in Germany honor the swastika "free of racial intent"? Was the German government right in banning the use of that symbol? (Of course, in the USA we have the First Amendment, so we can't and shouldn't ban the CBF.) You seem to want to view the CBF free of historical context -- both from the War of the Rebellion era and from the later KKK usage. I submit that that's an impossible task without extreme mental gymnastics. Good luck! ;-)
Mr. Denbow, I see your avatar is a stylized reproduction of the U.S. flag. Can you view that flag without the mental gymnastics its historical context of official government policy of genocide of the Plains Indians (red folks)? Do you have no problem with its being the flag of a nation that imprisoned American Indians (red folks) in concentration camps artfully called reservations, in conditions worse than plantation slavery?
DeleteDo you believe dropping the atomic bombs on hundreds of thousands of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki (yellow folks) was justified and does not besmirch the starznstripes and the nation it represents? Do you think it flies over a nation that was NOT disgraced by the CIA's MK Ultra experiments perpetrated against unknowing civilians? (Or was that okay because most of them were probably white?)
Does your flag give you no qualms of conscience over the CIA's participation in or at least turning a blind eye to horrific torture against civilians in Central America (brown folks) and Argentina (or is that okay because Argentina is multi-ethnic?).
Do you support the nation your flag represents having a military presence in 150 countries around the world, which makes it not a nation but an empire, in direct violation of what the Founders intended? Do you agree with forcing "democracy" on other countries via military violence? Are you seriously okay with violent "nation building"? Are you proud of Abu Ghraib?
Now, do not ever come in here to my blog and compare the Confederacy to Nazi Germany, ever again, because the attempt to equate them, or even establish some sort of similarity between them, will not be posted. The similarities are in your indoctrination or imagination. The dissimilarities are what's important:
There were nine million Jews in Europe before the Third Reich -- three million afterward. By contrast, the black population in the United States, before the war, during it, and afterward -- both during slavery and after emancipation -- grew at basically the same rate as the USA's white population.
There were no concentration camps that slaves were herded into in the Confederate states. Jews in death camps were worked to death and/or given rations scientifically calculated to starve them in three months. By contrast, American slaves ate much the same thing white people ate -- at least, in the South. (The slave narrative of James Gill tells that the slaves who belong to his master ate the same thing the white folks ate, cooked in the same pots). What they ate is called "soul food" today and it's viewed very positively -- tasty and nutritious, if rather high in starch.
Laws in various states mandated that slaveowners support aged slaves who were no longer able to work and that pregnant slaves be given lighter duties. I could go on, but I think this is sufficient to demonstrate that my opinion is right in line with reality; and my opinion is that those who would claim Confederates were on a par with Nazis are engaging in hate speech.
Back in 2000 or so, during the South Carolina Confederate flag controversy, a high school kid got on an internet group where the flag issue was being discussed and said, quite hysterically, that the flag represented the Confederacy, which genocided ALL the ancestors of today's African Americans. I asked him if they were ALL genocided -- i.e., ALL killed, ALL wiped out -- between 1861 and 1864, where/who did the almost 40 million blacks in America today come from. He didn't answer. In fact, he never posted again....
I honor the flag of the Confederate soldier because, whatever the politicians were doing and saying, HE was fighting to protect his family, home and community from a brutal army of invasion. No mental gymnastics needed for that.
Black Population - USA
ReplyDelete1850: 3,638,808
1860: 4,441,830.........22% increase
1870: 4,880,009.........10% increase
Only a slight increase in the black population from 1860 to 1870.
Due largely to the high mortality rates in Federally operated concentra....Contraband...Camps. Something that Floggers don't like to talk about.
I read somewhere that there was a 7% increase in the black population during the war years. I don't like to cite that figure because I forgot the source. But it wasn't Billy Joe Bob's Neo-Confederate History Site, I remember that much. It was a legitimate source.
DeleteCarl Denbow I'd just our old friend , Corey Meyer.
ReplyDeleteDenbow mentioned Ohio University. That's in Athens, Ohio. Lo, and behold, look who is in Athens, Ohio! http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/news/Archives/interviews/denbow_carl/index.htm
DeleteAnother, um, academic. What a flippin' surprise, huh.
Clickable link:
Deletehttp://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/news/Archives/interviews/denbow_carl/index.htm
Sure sounds like one of Meyer's fake handles. Sure sounds like him, too. I guess all them floggers walk, talk and sound alike.
DeleteWell, James, it is entirely possible that Corey "borrowed" Professor Denbow's name. You may remember he "borrowed" the likeness of one Dan Aremdariz, a student at UC Berkeley, for one of his many fake Facebook profiles.... http://mybacksass.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-liar-lies-part-deux.html
DeleteBut I still think this guy's grammar and spelling rule out Corey.
Agreed. The spelling and sentence structure is all wrong. Its possible to alter those slightly, but writing styles are like fingerprints, no matter how brilliant a writer you are there are giveaways. For example Stephen King could write a fantasy story like JRR Tolkien, but you'd still be able to tell King wrote it.
DeleteCorey, being far from brilliant, could not convincingly alter his style.
Of course, like James Owen pointed out, the Floggers and people like them are all a bunch of clones with no sense of individuality who parrot the same BS talking points.
Yep, like fingerprints. It's also called "voice." And although the floggers do parrot each other, I could read an anonymous passage written by a flogger, and tell you who wrote it. Even when they try to disguise it, voice comes through, as in this collection of garbage by Simpson: http://bashdixie.blogspot.com/
DeleteIf Mr. Denow insists that the Confederate Flag must be interpreted within it's historical context, so be it. But the same rule applies to interpreting the U. S. Flag. And without executing the most torturous mental gymnastics, I don't see how it's possible to look at the U.S. Flag and not hear the desperate and agonizing wails emanating from the foul holds of the slave-trafficking ships. I don't see how it is possible to look at the U.S. Flag and not smell the burning flesh of tens of thousands of Japanese civilians who were roasted during the firebombings of Tokyo or incinerated during the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't see how it's possible to look at the U.S. Flag and not see the mangled corpses of Vietnamese women and children in My Lai, or the napalm scorched body of a naked and terrorized nine year old girl frantically racing to escape the Americans.
ReplyDeleteHistorical on text is the key, you see.
I likewise agree that the Confederate Flag should be interpreted in its complete historical context.
ReplyDeleteWhere I would disagree with Mr. Denbow, and the rest of the Floggers, is that the negatives of that history define the modern context.
Indeed I would submit that a full and impartial summation of that flag's history from conception in 1861 till now would find the views of the Left weighed in the balances and found very much wanting.
Both John Coski and Devereaux Cannon Jr. wrote excellent books detailing that flag's wonderful and at times turbulent history.
Ignorance. The argument against the CBF is due to ignorance. I offer up a prime example at
Deletehttp://historicstruggle.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/a-gentlemans-agreement/
Note the comments. It was all about slavery even though none of the people who posted commets can provide any documents of any leaders Union or Confederate that proves this point.
(1) You should support that because it returns the integrity of the symbol. The goal should NOT be to completely remove the flag from sight or memory, but to properly display and interpret it within the historical framework. In a museum, at a battlefield, or on a cemetery plot is absolutely justified and the flag should be protected in those sacred forums. However, when it is used as a celebratory or political symbol by separatists, hate groups, or displayed ‘casually’ on bikinis, lighters and on pickup trucks, it is NOT displayed respectfully. Erecting cheap imitation flags on the side of highways does NOTHING to advance the public’s understanding or expand their interpretation of the flag. It is simply a big ‘middle finger’ gesture that actually hurts the cause of acceptance.
ReplyDelete(2) It would be a symbolic gesture of solidarity and show the world that you are finally taking the flag seriously and valuing it within the proper context. You would be sensitive to the pains of the past and making a huge leap forward in bridging the gap of racism that permeates from that symbol. Best of all, by returning the flag from a ‘Bass-Pro logo’ to a relic-status it would lose the negative connotation as it would return to the being an important artifact, not a modern icon that has saturated white trash culture and is used and abused by people supporting all kinds of causes. Call it oversaturation, misinterpretation, and tacky misappropriation. Blame Dixie Outfitters and Big Johnson.
(3) Many of the people that DO honor that flag unfortunately waste their time, money, and resources in a passive-aggressive posture, raging against “the Yankee” rather than truthfully and unbiasedly working to preserve REAL battle flags that their forefathers carried into battle. In other words, they have a distorted and self-defeating sense of priorities. Preserve REAL Confederate heritage by teaching it as it was, not as they wish it to be. Save the REAL flags by donating to conservation efforts and stop rallying behind imitations. Do you actually think Robert E Lee is OK with his sacred banner used like this?
(4) I don’t think most folks think of it as a sign of evil. Instead of being held in high regard as a historical banner used by an army in military setting, the flag has evolved into the definitive sign of an ignorant and oppressive time in our Nation’s history. It is impossible to look at flag that without at least acknowledging the negative connotations of slavery and secession. Admit (proudly) that your ancestors were courageous and noble BUT that they also fought for a questionable cause. Soldiers should not be held in contempt due to the actions of the administrations that they serve under, BUT you still have to ADMIT to their actions were in support of that injustice.
(5) This issue goes beyond the flag. It is selfish to ONLY look at southern history in regards to the four years of the Confederacy. THAT is another BIG part of the problem. Don’t complain about the state of the union when you don’t wish to be a part of it. Don’t complain about historical competence when you only acknowledge a fraction of it. At the end of the day, it’s a relic and when not preserved or presented within the proper confines, it is sullied, cheapened and diluted. Men died under that flag and it has been hijacked to support a wide variety of political agendas, most of them either negative or insensitive. YOUR cause is the irony here because in your desperation to bring acceptance to your flag, you have ultimately 'hurt' it.
No one in their right mind, regardless of color or background would look at a Confederate flag displayed in a museum, on a battlefield, or in a cemetery and think it doesn't belong there. Everywhere else in suspect and selfish and does more to project the flagger’s political beliefs, than the history of the men they claim to be honoring. Honor the flag by treating it LIKE a treasure and not a damn sports team logo!
(Part One)
DeleteAwesome! We actually have someone here who offered at least a good attempt at a logical response! Well done sir (or is it ma'am?).
Now for my response. For this I shall have to post each point in individual posts.
(1) "You should support that because it returns the integrity of the symbol."
Really? Do tell?
"The goal should NOT be to completely remove the flag from sight or memory..."
Ah! In there we are in total agreement!
"...but to properly display and interpret it within the historical framework."
Also something we are in agreement with so long as such interpretations are impartial and do not go about portraying either side as the "bad guy" for lack of a better term.
"In a museum, at a battlefield, or on a cemetery plot is absolutely justified and the flag should be protected in those sacred forums. "
So far so good....
"However, when it is used as a celebratory or political symbol by separatists, hate groups, or displayed ‘casually’ on bikinis, lighters and on pickup trucks, it is NOT displayed respectfully."
And now you fall flat on your face sir - or is it ma'am? While I would agree that its use as a political symbol is not proper, I do not believe that recognition of that flag as a living cultural symbol connected with Southern identity is inappropriate...even if it is on bikinis, lighters and pickup trucks. Those displays in and of themselves are not disrespectful, so long as they are tastefully done...and believe me I've seen some cases where that is far from true.
"Erecting cheap imitation flags on the side of highways does NOTHING to advance the public’s understanding or expand their interpretation of the flag. It is simply a big ‘middle finger’ gesture that actually hurts the cause of acceptance."
Well I am certain that those huge banners, many of which are handmade, are far from cheap. Also I would remind you that most of those banners are there because of some act of hatred perpetrated by Establishment culture bigots who seek no accommodation, who care nothing for recognition of Southern heritage that isn't on their terms. If you consider them "middle fingers" they are so in defiance of hatred that many of us see as on par with white supremacist misuse of that flag in the first place. They are there to let people know that those of us who honor that flag are not going anywhere. The sooner that the Establishment recognizes that fact and make an meaningful effort towards accepting that some mutually beneficial way the better off all of us will be in the long run.
(Part Two)
Delete(2) "It would be a symbolic gesture of solidarity and show the world that you are finally taking the flag seriously and valuing it within the proper context."
Humm, I'm not sure how that falls under the parameters of my question. I asked how it would work BEYOND a symbolic gesture...which are for the most part futile.
As far as taking the flag seriously, I think we have done a great deal to prove that we have done just that. We certainly value it in its proper context, both historically and as a modern living cultural symbol of Southern identity....something your side seems to continue having trouble recognizing.
"You would be sensitive to the pains of the past and making a huge leap forward in bridging the gap of racism that permeates from that symbol."
Really? And teaching all people to reject the view of the flag that white supremacists and race baiters exalt somehow would NOT do the same thing, and probably in the long run, in a much more meaningful way? Rejecting the evil and wrong-thinking view of that flag as a racial symbol is a defiance of hatred. Acceptance of that view in any way supports hate.
"Best of all..."
Wow there's a "best" part? :)
"...by returning the flag from a ‘Bass-Pro logo’ to a relic-status it would lose the negative connotation as it would return to the being an important artifact, not a modern icon that has saturated white trash culture and is used and abused by people supporting all kinds of causes. Call it oversaturation, misinterpretation, and tacky misappropriation. Blame Dixie Outfitters and Big Johnson."
The comment is too much of an epic fail for me to regard with any degree of seriousness, but since I did ask for some sort of response (and I'm certain within the limits of your ideology you're doing your best) allow me to point out that the US flag has likewise been used as a modern icon of the so-called "white trash culture" and used and abused by people supporting all kinds of causes. Ditto with the oversaturation, misinterpretation and tacky misappropriation (you should see the underwear....the horror!) For that I blame pretty much every big label clothing liner.
I presume that since you advocate we do something in regards to the battle flag that you likewise support the same in regards to our own national colors and virtually every other flag so abused? Eh?
Take your time.
(Part Three)
Delete(3) "Many of the people that DO honor that flag unfortunately waste their time, money, and resources in a passive-aggressive posture, raging against “the Yankee” rather than truthfully and unbiasedly working to preserve REAL battle flags that their forefathers carried into battle."
Uh....wow, that's news to me. I mean especially since only a few days ago I came from an SCV meeting where details about the efforts at raising money for the preservation of battle flags at the Confederate Relic Room at the SC State Museum in Columbia was being discussed. And of course most of the same people are also very active in heritage battles, myself included.
As far as raging against "the Yankee" goes...I actually rage against the Politically Correct Establishment itself, which is made up of a rather "diverse" group of people in theory, but who all seem to have a group-think mindset in regards to Socialist...oops, I mean social issues of the day.
"In other words, they have a distorted and self-defeating sense of priorities."
Well since I just completely shot down your previous sentence I think it's safe to say you've already proven yourself wrong on that one too.
"Preserve REAL Confederate heritage by teaching it as it was, not as they wish it to be."
Something I likewise advocate. You're preaching to the choir there.
"Save the REAL flags by donating to conservation efforts and stop rallying behind imitations."
Uh, see previous.
"Do you actually think Robert E Lee is OK with his sacred banner used like this?"
As a matter of fact sir, allow me to quote one of my favorite Southern historians in that very issue sir.
"It is inconceivable that Lee, if he were alive today, would advocate resistance to national authority or in any way abet social turmoil or racial hatred. Certainly, he would staunchly oppose the use of the Confederate flag to cloak sordid causes and shield unworthy persons. To him the Confederate flag was a symbol of suffering, gallantry, and heroism of the highest and noblest sort. He would be infuriated by the sight of self-seeking demagogues and wrong-thinking agents of bigotry, hatred and violence wrapping themselves in this revered emblem in an effort to acquire respectability and enhance their influence."
Historian Bell I. Wiley in a speech made at Mercer University, Macon, Georgia on January 19, 1961.
I would tend to agree. I would also think he would have strong issues with people who wrap themselves in righteous indignation at whatever display of that noble banner simply to score political points and advance their own sorry social agendas.
Let's not even go into what Jackson would suggest. :)
Part Four
Delete(4) "I don’t think most folks think of it as a sign of evil."
I certainly do not!
"Instead of being held in high regard as a historical banner used by an army in military setting, the flag has evolved into the definitive sign of an ignorant and oppressive time in our Nation’s history."
Actually I would say "de-evolved", since grammatically speaking evolving requires changing with times in positive ways.
Also your interpretation is only one interpretation, and certainly not one shared by a vast majority of America's population, much less the rest of the world at large.
"It is impossible to look at flag that without at least acknowledging the negative connotations of slavery and secession."
I don't ask anyone to do otherwise. I myself acknowledge them to a point, even though I don't see them as defining connotations of the flag's symbolism in a modern sense.
"Admit (proudly) that your ancestors were courageous and noble BUT that they also fought for a questionable cause."
I'd say the same of those whose ancestors also fought to "Preserve the Union" too.
"Soldiers should not be held in contempt due to the actions of the administrations that they serve under, BUT you still have to ADMIT to their actions were in support of that injustice."
Their actions were in support of their homes, their families, and the land of their birth. I don't think it mattered to a good many of them which government represented that land, or what color the coats of the men who march on that land as an invading force wore. Could of been blue, green red, or even gray.
Did their support of the Confederate government support injustice - by which I think you mean slavery right? Yes. Of course so did those who fought for the Union until Jan. 1866...not to mention those who served under the US flag since 1776 in several other wars. Oh and let's not forget all the other injustices since the War: Native American genocide, conquest and colonialism of the Philippines and other places, Japanese internment, segregation (Jim Crow and "gentlemen's laws" respectively) ect....shall I go on? If we're going to be picking through injustices, this is going to take a loooong time indeed.
(Part Five)
Delete(5) "This issue goes beyond the flag."
Oh indeed it does.
"It is selfish to ONLY look at southern history in regards to the four years of the Confederacy.THAT is another BIG part of the problem."
Is it? (blinks) That's uh...news to me. I wasn't aware that I, or anyone else who honors Confederate heritage, simply looks at four years of it. Perhaps you can site specifics where this has been solely the case?
"Don’t complain about the state of the union when you don’t wish to be a part of it."
Wow ASSumptions much? You're talking to a US Navy veteran. I think I can state quite proudly that I have nothing but respect for this country of ours...especially for the rights guaranteed by the original Bill of Rights and God who granted Americans those same rights.
"Don’t complain about historical competence when you only acknowledge a fraction of it."
Well, nobody has deemed it necessary to quiz me on other aspects of it as of late, though I would be more than happy to have that particular debate at length. American history is one of my favorite subjects, and you'll find I'm quite up to the task.
"At the end of the day, it’s a relic and when not preserved or presented within the proper confines, it is sullied, cheapened and diluted."
Humm, since it is in fact a living symbol of Southern identity that stands as relevant to cultural and heraldic values, I think we can agree to disagree there.
"Men died under that flag and it has been hijacked to support a wide variety of political agendas, most of them either negative or insensitive."
I certainly do not disagree with that.
Of course I advocate and work towards setting the record straight. You work towards acceptance of the status quo - one that allows such agendas and the narrow minds behind them credibility with a flag that Confederate descendants have declared they have no right to.
"YOUR cause is the irony here because in your desperation to bring acceptance to your flag, you have ultimately 'hurt' it."
*ACHOO!*
Oh I'm sorry I'm allergic to BS.
"No one in their right mind, regardless of color or background would look at a Confederate flag displayed in a museum, on a battlefield, or in a cemetery and think it doesn't belong there."
Two words: The Committee.
Try again.
"Everywhere else in suspect and selfish..."
Humm, as your rant comes to a merciful close you're beginning to make grammer errors.
"... and does more to project the flagger’s political beliefs, than the history of the men they claim to be honoring. Honor the flag by treating it LIKE a treasure and not a damn sports team logo!"
And with that we come to the end of this nonsensical and incoherent rant.
Whew!
Alas, in spite of the parameters I set - which he (or she) didn't seem to deem to stick to - it would appear this "MA" person did little more than recycle the same tired and refuted talking points. Nothing new, nothing learned... I suspect that "MA" will fail to learn anything from the response either, though I also suspect that to be more by design and simple closed-mindedness.
Once again, if that rather lengthy set of instructions also applies to interpreting the U.S. Flag, then everyone should be in agreement.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your reply. As a follow up you state:
ReplyDelete"I presume that since you advocate we do something in regards to the battle flag that you likewise support the same in regards to our own national colors and virtually every other flag so abused? Eh"
I do not agree with the commercialization and logo-like use of the Stars and Stripes either, nor the Gadsden Flag, etc. Flags are sacred banners - not 'cool' emblems.
There you and I can agree.
DeleteWell so far two Flogger stooges tried and failed epically to offer any real response. I offer a real challenge, a way for them to present their best arguments and all I got so far were ramblings, presumptions, and the usual talking points.
ReplyDeleteReally people, where's the depth to your arguments? The detailed account of the moral righteousness of your cause?
I mean is this truly all y'all have to offer?! Really?!
C. W.,
DeleteI believe you have failed to answer Rob Baker at ----
http://historicstruggle.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/a-gentlemans-agreement/
If he has banned you, let me know and I will give you space at ----
http://coldsouthernsteel.wordpress.com/2014/05/04/a-simple-challenge/
George Purvis
Southern Heritage Advancement Preservation and Education -- website
Cold Southern steel--- Blog
As I understand it I am banned on the Flogger's blogs....mostly due to the fact I pretty much own them every time I deal with them. :)
DeleteIf you would be so kind to put his response on yours sir, I would very much appreciate it.
I don't appreciate being called a 'stooge' when I have been quite cordial and was attempting to carry on a conversation. I thought there was a mutual respect here. Apparently I was wrong. I think I made it VERY clear that I value the Confederate flag, I just disagree on the use of it outside of historical-connotations. I'm NOT a "flogger" and feel quite insulted by that insinuation.
ReplyDeleteWell sir, I would like to add that you also rather made it clear you have contempt for Southern heritage defenders, particularly with assumptions about the motives of individuals, your dig at the Virginia Flaggers, and fail to recognize a legitimate struggle for individual freedom and true civil rights for what it is...instead assigning some "anti-American" agenda towards the goals of flag supporters.
DeleteI would also add that all of your responses failed to explain the ideological underpinnings of those who oppose the display of the Confederate flag as a modern cultural and heraldic symbol of Southern identity. Specifically how its removal from public display and consignment to museums and historical sites will in any fundamental way defeat the ignorant and self-serving ideals of those who hate its display, nor alter the misconceptions of those legitimately offended by it.
I believe you mean what you say about honoring the old original banners and respecting their conservation - even though you clearly pointed out (wrongly) how you felt that "we" were not doing our share in that regard while erecting "large middle fingers" for our personal amusement.
Mutual respect? Sir that must be given to be received.