That's activities... You know, like what he did.
In the twelve years I've been online, I've run into countless claims on news-report comment threads, in listserves, chat rooms, discussion groups and so forth, that "Forrest was a terrorist! He founded the freaking Klan! He was the first Grand Wizard! He terrorized and murdered innocent freedmen!" and so on and so forth.
There are also claims that he was a slave trader (no question that he was) and that he and the Confederate troops under his command "massacred" surrendering black Union soldiers at Ft. Pillow (not true).
On December 4, I posted at the SHPG:
True or not? There is as much primary historical source evidence that Silas Chandler was a Confederate soldier as there is that Nathan Bedford Forrest organized, founded, operated, ran, directed, rode with, or was involved with the KKK, except to issue orders to disband it.
I was not attempting to make a case that Silas Chandler was a Confederate soldier. I don't know whether he was or not. What's more, I don't care whether he was or not. I was simply making a comparison that the primary historical source documentation of Forrest's KKK activities was as paltry as primary historical source documentation for Silas Chandler's soldierhood.
Perfesser Simpson, who monitors the SHPG like the KGB monitored Soviet dissidents, saw my comment and admonished his readers to help me out and provide the info I was asking about.
This is Simpson's first offering of primary historical source documentation: "Was Forrest involved with the KKK? Sure was."
Keep in mind that this man is a Professor of History, CSRD Associate Director, SHPRS, at Arizona State University. In addition to "Sure was," he provided me a link to this website (presumably he thinks this is PHSD, as well, or else he knows it's not but offered the link, anyway, for whatever reason....)
http://www.confederatepastpresent.org/
"Confederate Truths" claims to be affiliated with the William Winter Institute for Racial Reconciliation at the University of Mississippi (headed up by Susan Glisson, who I mentioned in Stupidizing Southerners, here) -- but I suspect this site is some concoction of Ed 'The Crawfish" Sebesta, since it's touting the book about "neo-Confederates" he "co-edited" with James W. Loewen.
I looked around the site a little, discovered that the "Reconstruction and Fusion" links are filled with Lorem Ipsum. Hmmmm... Keep in mind that the man who provided the link to "Confederate Truths" is a Professor of Histo-- but I've already said that, haven't I? I pointed out the Lorem Ipsum and asked him if he'd accept that site as a proper source from one of his students... I don't know if he answered cuz I haven't visited that comment thread in a while, but I doubt it.
So anyway, then he tells me to read Brian Steel Wills's biography about Forrest. This, of course, is not PHSD, as Wills is my contemporary. He may reference some PHSD, though, so I'll take a look at the book some day. (Santa Claus brought me an e-reader for Christmas, and I checked to see if Wills's book is available as an e-book. It is not, alas....)
So on the same comment thread, Andy Hall posted a paragraph from and a link to information about Forrest's being sworn in as a member of the KKK. I followed the link and it turned out to be an issue of The Confederate Veteran. The article was written by a Mrs. S.E.F. Rose of West Point, Mississippi and published in January 1916 -- some 50 years after Forrest's alleged KKK "involvement" began.
Andy noted, "Real Confederates certainly thought Forrest was a klansman..."
Apparently, Andy thinks that means we're supposed to think so, too.
Besides, my question wasn't whether Forrest was a klansman -- my question was, what did he do as a klansman? Was he a night-rider in a robe and a pointy hat -- a terrorist and murderer, as all those comment threads I've been reading for eleven years claim?
Perfesser Simpson then pulled his trump card, "...You still have to explain how Forrest could issue orders to an organization he did not supervise. Why do you find it so difficult to answer that question?"
(When he's not being as snide and bitchy as an old lady, he exhibits all the patience and understanding of a three-year-old).
Next time I visited the thread, I replied, "From what I can tell thus far, he was a figurehead, elected in absentia, had little or no interest in the organization, took little part in it, known to have issued two orders that (1) weakened and (2) ended it. That’s my tentative answer based on what’s been posted here, and some other things I’ve read."
Last time I visited that comment thread, nobody had offered to refute my my observation.
Evidently, I didn't show enough respect for Andy's waving and dangling "real Confederates" around on the comment thread because shortly afterward, he made a long post at his Dead Confederate blog, apparently designed to provide ironclad proof that Forrest was "involved" with the KKK.
So did Andy's lengthy blog post answer my question? Does it tell us what Forrest's KKK "involvement" involved? Basically, did it tell us what he did, what his activities were?
I'll take a look at Andy's information in the next installment of The Involvement Chronicles, which I plan to get around to, oh, whenever....
(Photo of Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest from the Library of Congress)
I think Andy dispels your argument of Absentia. Forrest actively sought to join and participate in the Klan according to John Watson Morton's autobiography. Morton was an admitted Klan member and was witness to and swore Forrest in to the Klan. http://deadconfederates.com/2011/12/11/nathan-bedford-forrest-joins-the-klan/
ReplyDeleteThat would be a PHSD as you term it.
So what if Forrest was in the Klan. He was a great warrior for the South and his legacy is one of not taking any prisoners.
ReplyDeleteRob, Rob, Rob... What did is participation comprise? What were his ACTIVITIES in the KKK? What did he DO? What did his involvement INVOLVE??????? And I will get around to discussing Andy's blog post sooner or later ... so y'all come back now, ya heah?
ReplyDeleteI am wondering how "Forrest activly sought to join and participate in the Klan" when so many folks say he 'founded' it.
ReplyDeleteFirst to John's comment, "...and his legacy is one of not taking any prisoners." That is pretty much disgusting. It's not enough that we have to put a historical figure on a pedestal but then we go on to celebrate war crimes. Bravo.
ReplyDeleteConnie, Your first arguments were primary documentation proving Forrest was in the Klan was next to none. You furthered this statement by drawing a comparison between Forrest and the lack of evidence proving Silas was a black confederate. Since you made that statement, research has been done and primary evidence ascertained proving he not only was a member but actively sought out membership. Now you are backstepping from that original argument to one of involvement. Of course engaging in this type of argument is going to turn into an argument of semantics. All you really want to do is cast doubt on subject in order to advance your agenda. I will bite however. Forrest was involved by becoming its Grand Wizard. Though differing accounts place him in Nashville at the election, or in other places, many comment and note that he was its leader and they recognized him as such. Under his leadership the Klan grew to tremendous numbers and organization began to tighten. Forrest in the same breath would talk about violence of which he deplored but would use to restore order and defend against carpetbaggers and Tennessee's militia. Ultimately Forrest and Gordon Brown left the Klan. It is said it was due to the fact that the violence was outrageous and uncontrollable. Now I know your argument Connie, "he didn't participate, it's an ifso facto head," etc. etc. I know there is nothing there showing Forrest killed and burned down barns under the hood so to speak. But by that logic, what did Eisenhower actually do in WW2. Now in stead of being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, how about you attempt to add something to discussion. Andy has already done a great job of that by showing how Forrest's attitudes changed over time.
><. Morton was an admitted Klan member and was witness to and swore Forrest in to the Klan. ><
ReplyDeleteI don't know about Watson's autobiography, cannot find such. But in his book - The Artillery of Nathan Bedford Forrest's Cavalry: The Wizard of the Saddle -- there are 2 mentions of Forrest and the Klan. One an exerpt of a 1906 writing from T.W. Gregory of Texas, "It is believed that the 'Grand Wizard' was no less a personage than Nathan Bedford Forrest." The second mention is an excerpt from Thomas Dixon's writings describing Forrest's swearing in by Morton. Nothing that I could directly from Morton. Nothing contemporary. Perhaps I overlooked it.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47099941/The-Artillery-of-Nathan-Bedford-Forrest-s-Cavalry-The-Wizard-of-the-Saddle-John-Watson-Morton-1909
ReplyDeleteScroll down to 362/408. That is page 344 of the book. This is Morton citing Dixon's writings about Morton himself. Then he elaborates on them personally.
I've read pages 330 to 362, nothing is there pertaining to Forrest and the Klan beyond the two references I already cited.
ReplyDeleteI just linked the book Eddie. I am staring at the passage right now. This is Morton, describing Dixon describing Morton. Then Morton elaborates on that.
ReplyDeleteyou are welcome to copy & paste Morton's pertinent remarks regarding Forrest and the Klan. Looking forward to reading.
ReplyDeleteTell the truth, Rob. You said to me, "Your first arguments were primary documentation proving Forrest was in the Klan was next to none."
ReplyDeleteThat is not a true statement, Rob. Here's my original post about it on SHPG from early December. It is not an argument, but a question:
"True or not? There is as much primary historical source evidence that Silas Chandler was a Confederate soldier as there is that Nathan Bedford Forrest organized, founded, operated, ran, directed, rode with, or was involved with the KKK, except to issue orders to disband it."
Not that Forrest "was in the Klan" but that he "organized, founded, operated, ran, directed, rode with, or was involved with the KKK, except to issue orders to disband it."
Tell the truth, Rob.
You say, "Since you made that statement, research has been done and primary evidence ascertained proving he not only was a member but actively sought out membership."
But "actively seeking membership doesn't tell how he "...organized, founded, operated, ran, directed, rode with..." the KKK, now does it? That was my original question.
You say, "Forrest was involved by becoming its Grand Wizard."
And what were his ACTIVITIES as Grand Wizard? WHAT DID HE DO as Grand Wizard?
You say, "...many comment and note that he was its leader and they recognized him as such."
Let me type this real slow, and real loud, so that it maybe penetrates...
DO THEY SAY WHAT HIS ACTIVITIES WERE? DO THEY SAY WHAT HE DID?
Rob: "Under his leadership the Klan grew to tremendous numbers and organization began to tighten."
WHAT leadership activities, Rob? What did he DO that grew the Klan? Did he ... hold seances? Did he ... dance in the moonlight? WHAT DID HE DOOOOOOOOO???????
"Forrest in the same breath would talk about violence of which he deplored but would use to restore order and defend against carpetbaggers and Tennessee's militia."
Source with DESCRIPTION and verification that he used violence -- and in what form?
Rob: "I know there is nothing there showing Forrest killed and burned down barns under the hood so to speak. But by that logic, what did Eisenhower actually do in WW2."
Good LORD! Are you freakin' SERIOUS?
Rob, you're getting confused. We're talking two different things, two events -- (1) joining and (2) getting elected leader.
ReplyDeleteNow, read carefully. I didn't say Forrest JOINED the KKK "in absentia." I said it appeared he was ELECTED (to leadership, to Grand Wizard or whatever) in absentia.
Andy's account tends to verify this. It is also talking about two different things -- Forrest JOINING the KKK and Forrest BEING ELECTED to a leadership position.
Even Andy's *source* seems to agree "joining" and "being elected" were two separate events that occurred at different times:
"That night the General was made a full-fledged clansman, and was soon elected Grand Wizard of the Invisible Empire. . . .[15]"
"That night" and "was soon" indicates two different time periods, for two different events.
http://deadconfederates.com/2011/12/11/nathan-bedford-forrest-joins-the-klan/#more-8586
Rob Baker-
ReplyDelete"Forrest was involved by becoming its Grand Wizard."
But the widow of George W. Gordon said that her husband had been the Grand Wizard. Now if Mr. Gordon was the Wizard that leaves ol' Bedford out, doesn't it?
***
Connie,
It seems that the current academic crowd latch on to anything that 'proves' what they wish to believe. All that is contrary is ignored.
Eddie: "One of the most interesting figures in the inner history of the clan is that of Hon. John W. Morton, formerly Secretary of the State of Tennessee, who was General Forrest’s chief of artillery. Pale and boyish in appearance, he was, in fact, but a boy, yet he won the utmost confidence of the General, who relied on him as Stuart did on Pelham and Lee on Jackson. Forrest called him ‘the little bit of a kid with a great big backbone.’ When the rumors of the Kuklux [sic.] Klan first spread over Tennessee, General Forrest was quick to see its possibilities. He went immediately to Nashville to find his young chief of artillery.
ReplyDelete“Captain Morton then had an office diagonally across from the Maxwell House. Looking from his window one day, he saw General Forrest walking impatiently around Calhoun Corner, as it was then called. Hastening down the steps to greet his former chieftain, he encountered a little negro [sic.] boy, who inquired where he could find Captain Morton. He said: ‘There’s a man over yonder on de corner and he wants to see him, and he looks like he wants to see him mighty bad.’ Captain Morton hurried across the street, and, after salutation, the General said: ‘John, I hear this Kuklux Klan is organized in Nashville, and I know you are in it. I want to join.’ The young man avoided the issue and took his Commander for a ride. General Forrest persisted in his questions about the Klan and Morton kept smiling and changing the subject. On reaching a dense woods in a secluded valley outside the city, Morton suddenly turned on his former leader and said: ‘General, do you say you want to join the Kuklux?’
General Forrest was somewhat vexed and swore a little: ‘Didn’t I tell you that’s what I came up here for?’
Smiling at the idea of giving orders to his erstwhile commander, Captain Morton said: ‘Well, get out of the buggy.’ General Forrest stepped out of the buggy, and next received the order: ‘Hold up your right hand.’
General Forrest did as he was ordered, and Captain Morton solemnly administered the preliminary oath of the order.
As he finished taking the oath General Forrest said: ‘John, that’s the worst swearing that I ever did.’
‘That’s all I can give you now. Go to Room 10 at the Maxwell House to-night and you can get all you want. Now you know how to get in,’ said Captain Morton.
After administering the oath to his chieftain, Captain Morton drove him to call on a young lady, and after a short visit in the parlor, Miss H. saw them out to the door. General Forrest led her to the end of the porch, and Captain Morton overheard him saying: ‘Miss Annie, if you can get John Morton, you take him. I know him. He’ll take care of you.’
That night the General was made a full-fledged clansman, and was soon elected Grand Wizard of the Invisible Empire. . . ."
Border Ruffian again you show a complete lacking. My first assertion is that you provide documentation. My second is that it is common knowledge that Gordon was in charge before Forrest came along. Gordon was one of the originals.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone in liberal academia want to know about "The Union League: Washington's Klan?" New Yorker John Chodes, the author, writes: "The first Klan, the real Klan, that terrified, lynched, and murdered blacks as well as whites, was an agency of the Federal government. It was called the Union League . . . ."
ReplyDeleteRather than seeking to smear the honorable General Forrest and other disenfranchised Southern men who sought to protect their society from the wrath of Reconstruction, the leftist egg-heads should be worried about cleaning up their own historical mess in the form of the damnable Union League.--Michael Hill, President, The League of the South
Rob -- I do not know if it is willful deceit on your part or just lack of reading comprehension. All you provided me is Thomas Dixon's writings, not a thing from Morton. Numerous quotations are left off of what you provided.
ReplyDelete"When the rumors of the Kuklux Klan first spread over Tennessee, General Forrest was quick to see its possibilities. He went immediately to Nashville to find his young chief of artillery.
"Captain Morton then had an office diagonally across from the Maxwell House. Looking from his window one day, he saw General Forrest walking impatiently around Calhoun Corner, as it was then called. Hastening down the steps to greet his former chieftain, he encountered a little negro boy, who inquired where he could find Captain Morton. He said: 'There's a man over yonder on de corner and he wants to see him, and he looks like he wants to see him mighty bad.' Captain Morton hurried across the street, and, after salutation, the General said: 'John, I hear this Kuklux Klan is organized in Nashville, and I know you are in it. I want to join.' The young man avoided the issue and took his Commander for a ride. General Forrest persisted in his questions about the Klan and Morton kept smiling and changing the subject. On reaching a dense woods in a secluded valley outside the city, Morton suddenly turned on his former leader and said: 'General, do you say you want to join the Kuklux?'
"General Forrest was somewhat vexed and swore a little: 'Didn't I tell you that's what I came up here for?'
"Smiling at the idea of giving orders to his erstwhile commander, Captain Morton said: 'Well, get out of the buggy.' General Forrest stepped out of the buggy, and next received the order: 'Hold up your right hand.'
"General Forrest did as he was ordered, and Captain Morton solemnly administered the preliminary oath of the order.
"As he finished taking the oath General Forrest said: 'John, that's the worst swearing that I ever did.'
"'That's all I can give you now. Go to Room 10 at the Maxwell House to-night and you can get all you want. Now you know how to get in,' said Captain Morton.
"After administering the oath to his chieftain, Captain Morton drove him to call on a young lady, and after a short visit in the parlor, Miss H. saw them out to the door. General Forrest led her to the end of the porch, and Captain Morton overheard him saying: 'Miss Annie, if you can get John Morton, you take him. I know him. He'll take care of you.'
"That night the General was made a full-fledged clansman, and was soon elected Grand Wizard of the Invisible Empire. . . ."
All the above is from Thomas Dixon who would have been about 4 years old at the time. Brilliant!!!!!!!
"All the above is from Thomas Dixon who would have been about 4 years old at the time. Brilliant!!!!!!! "
ReplyDeleteEddie please read my above comments directed at you. For your reading pleasure I will copy them below.
"I just linked the book Eddie. I am staring at the passage right now. This is Morton, describing Dixon describing Morton. Then Morton elaborates on that."
Again, this is Morton quoting Dixon in his book. Then Morton elaborate on to that for a few pages. He does not deny anything about it, but elaborates on it. This is the last time I will talk about this particular subject to you. I cannot help it if you can't figure out that Morton writing a book in the early 1900's is quoting an author that wrote about him. Morton is what makes this a primary source analysis. Not Dixon.
Rob -- you avowed that Morton had confirmed Forrest's participation in the Klan. Your words --
ReplyDelete" according to John Watson Morton's autobiography. Morton was an admitted Klan member and was witness to and swore Forrest in to the Klan. "
All I see is his inclusion of some text by Thomas Dixon. Maybe you can show me where it's confirmed by Morton. Morton's word is "vivid" -- "Rev. Thomas Dixon, Jr., has given a vivid picture of the admission of General Forrest to the order and the closing parade in Nashville, which is inserted here:". Remarkable recollections by a 4 year old, wouldn't you say?
So it's not lack of reading comprehension on your part. Then it is the willful deceit that I suspected.
Big Chief-
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone in liberal academia want to know about "The Union League: Washington's Klan?" New Yorker John Chodes, the author, writes: "The first Klan, the real Klan, that terrified, lynched, and murdered blacks as well as whites, was an agency of the Federal government. It was called the Union League . . . ."
***
This is true but liberal academia can't do any race baiting with the Union League. That's why you don't hear much about it.
Dr. Hill, where is John Chode's work available?
ReplyDeleteMiss Connie - in Chodes book on Jabez Curry he includes a bit about the Union/Loyal Leagues and the Freedman's Bureau beginning at this link in google books --
ReplyDeletehttp://books.google.com/books?id=lSPCN0EBttUC&pg=PA144&dq=%22schools+for+black+radical+republicans%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6nwDT7cvpN3RAZjplcYK&ved=0CEoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22schools%20for%20black%20radical%20republicans%22&f=false
Again Eddie, in the above posts I linked the book. I think you are just playing dumb. You can continue to throw out insults but you everyone on this page see that I not only referenced Morton's book but also provided Page number of the scanned images and the page number of the book. Until you acknowledge that, everything else you say is somewhat pointless. It's sort of a foolish statement to say that I am willfully being deceitful and lying about Morton's comments given that I referenced the book above.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Eddie.
ReplyDeleteRob, you posted Dixon's comments, not Morton's. If you are unable to differentiate and consider yourself insulted by having that pointed out to you, then I am at loss.
ReplyDeleteRob is on his way up the academic ladder. He has to go along with the PC line (same for Hall, Levin, etc) otherwise he won't get there. No books or articles published either. Is Rob smart? Yes. But he's also a sort of historical mercenary.
ReplyDeleteAgain Eddie, I posed the link to Morton's book above where he cites the story as accurate and elaborates on the comments. I can't help it that you don't understand that. If you want to continue random snark comments saying I am citing Dixon, which I have continuously explained I am citing Morton's book, then you are a "Lost Cause."
ReplyDeleteAnd Border Ruffian, PC doesn't have anything to do with it. I am searching for the same types of things. I respect some of Forrest's military brilliance and his change of beliefs towards colored people late in his life. I do not however shun away from his faults. Forrest is not a legendary figure to be put on a pedestal. Ultimately he is a human being just as complex as you or I. You need to understand that.
Eddie, I found Chode's paper on Dixienet. Looking forward to ordering it and reading it. I want to know the PHSD he uses.
ReplyDeleteBorder Ruffian, you asked if Rob is smart. How smart is it to emerge from college with your mind hermetically sealed off with impenetrable shrink-wrap so no further information can sink in?
Rob, don't come in here and lecture and mouth inanities like, "Ultimately he is a human being just as complex as you or I," and then tell other people they *need* to understand that.
That "Forrest is not a legendary figure to be put on a pedestal," is your opinion, to which you are welcome. It is not universal truth everyone must bow to.
Connie you comments demonstrate that you have no actual interest in historical accuracy only your agenda. And when did historical figures as complex humans become 'opinion." Apparently Nathan Bedford Forrest is "Highlander."
ReplyDelete*Sigh.* Can't believe I'm having to explain this to a college edu-muh-cated fellow....
ReplyDelete1. So you think my wanting to see primary historical source documentation means I have no interest in historical accuracy. Hmmm....
2. I said nothing about "historical figures as complex humans" becoming 'opinion.' I said the statement, "Ultimately he is a human being just as complex as you or I," is an inanity.
3. The part of my comment that refers to opinion says, "That 'Forrest is not a legendary figure to be put on a pedestal,' is your opinion, to which you are welcome."
I think first you need to just call it primary sources or primary source documentation. Primary Historical Source Documentation isn't really a term. Primary Source, evidence, original source but not PHSD.
ReplyDelete1.) I think you want to see the loosely assimilated facts the journalist put together in order to reinforce views that you already hold.
2.) Instead of insulting an idea why don't you explain how it is false. Which you never really do. It is not empty or shallow. It is accurate. Why you coin legendary status on those that are dead, totally overlook their flaws and worship the positives is beyond me. Your pedestal is in itself an inanity.
3.) No Historical figure should be put on a pedestal. Except maybe for the religious figures of that specific believer. This includes Lincoln, Washington, Forrest, Lee, Jackson, Chamberlain, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Frederick I, Elizabeth I, Henry VIII, George I, II, III, IV, Otto Von Bismark, Charles Martel,Richard III, Napoleon, Jefferson, and Gorbachev.
Are they historical figures? yes. Do the merit study? Yes. Should they be placed under an impenetrable umbrella of which we should worship? No. They are human beings. They are complex. They preach equality yet hold slaves. They preach Socialism yet discriminate etc.
You've yet to add anything to this discussion except for merely attempting to deconstruct others's comments.
Robt, I'll call it whatever the hell I want. What is your authority for defining what is and is not "really a term"? If you don't like the phase "primary historical source documentation," don't use it. But don't tell other people what they "need" to do.
ReplyDeleteYou can think whatever you wish. I don't insult ideas. At this point, re: Forrest, I'm not claiming anything is false... I'm looking for verification that what others claim about him is true. I haven't "coined" (do you mean conferred or bestowed?) legendary status on Forrest (that's been done without my efforts) or put him on a pedestal. You couldn't find worship of any human being in anything I've written if your life depended on it.
I'm looking for proof of Forrest's ACTIVITIES with the KKK -- I'm looking for what he DID as its leader. I haven't attempted to deconstruct any comments offered in this regard because here haven't BEEN any to deconstruct. NOBODY has even ATTEMPTED to offer PHSD for his ACTIVITIES as LEADER of the KKK....
Actually Connie, call it by its name association when it already has a name. Calling you consistently by Ralph wouldn't be very polite regardless of whether or not I am under the guise of "I'll call it whatever the hell I want." I have no authority for defining this term because it already is defined. I am just trying to give you useful advice, there is no need to get all angry. You really 'need' to get over it. ;)
ReplyDeleteExcuse me for the use of coined, bestowed or conferred, or referred for that matter would be more ideal. You exhibit the worship and confirmation of the status of hero along with demonization of Union soldiers on the SHPG all the time.
Again, as I stated, proof of activities from a leader is an argument as any leader of any secret organization. You cannot tie the direct orientation of order to action. He was its leader, acts under them were under his leadership. And you HAVE (since you like to capitalize as a form of asserting your will online) been deconstructing constant. Deconstruction is all you do regardless of PHSD [sic] or Primary Sources. In fact, for someone so against PC and feminism, you sure act like a Post Modernist.
The first Klan was to keep carpetbaggers and such from buying up the south after that war so I have NO problem with "THE MOST MAN in the WORLD",as Shelby Foote called Forrest being a Klansman!
ReplyDelete