Sunday, August 25, 2013

Losin' It Before Our Very Eyes

UPDATED! (SEE BELOW)


The latest babble from Babbling Brooks at Crossroads:

The Flagger Proposal: Disrupting and Disrespecting the Confederate Dead?
Posted on August 25, 2013 by Brooks D. Simpson   

Spokespeople for the Virginia Flaggers have claimed that the area where they plan to erect a fifty-foot flag pole from which to fly a Confederate flag that would be visible to motorists traveling north on I-95 to Richmond is sacred soil. After all, they argue, Confederate soldiers were stationed there and died there.

They may be right. After all, the area under consideration is near Drewry’s Bluff, site of an 1862 action, as well as a key moment in the 1864 Bermuda Hundred campaign (as this map shows):

(from Beyond the Crater)
Here’s the same area today, with I-95 clearly marked:
Chester, Virginia
From the Times-Dispatch article. "The site is particularly significant because Confederate troops are believed to have camped in and around the area during the Bermuda Hundred campaign, according to Hathaway."

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/city-of-richmond/confederate-flag-will-fly-along-i/article_14dcfb38-3535-5016-a110-7e786b8817e2.html
You would think that a group dedicated to honoring the sacrifices of Confederate soldiers, including those who gave their lives in the cause of southern independence, might first do a little work to ascertain what just might be in the area before they commenced construction. (How do we know they didn't? How do you know the owner of the property hasn't long since done it?)

What evidence do we have that they have taken steps all of us would recognize as proper and responsible?  (We who? YOU? What makes you think you should be provided with such evidence?)

Is the simple claim that this is private property, so that the Flaggers can do whatever they want, regardless of the consequences …. including the disturbance of historical resources (the very ones they claim exist) (they didn't claim any "historical resources" exist there. They just said the area is "particularly significant" because "Confederate troops ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE CAMPED in and around the area...") and the disturbance of Confederates laid to rest in the area … enough to desecrate the very men they claim to honor?
WHO SAID THERE ARE CONFEDERATES LAID TO REST IN THE AREA? It was mentioned that soldiers might have died there. Not the same thing as being buried there. A HISTORIAN DOESN'T KNOW THIS??????
We have none other than the Flaggers themselves for alerting us to the possible destruction of valuable cultural and historical resources. (The anger is taking its toll on his composition skills, too.)
NOBODY HAS SAID THERE IS A CEMETERY THERE ... NOBODY HAS SAID CONFEDERATES ARE "LAID TO REST" THERE. PEOPLE SAID THERE WERE CAMPS AND BATTLES NEARBY, AND VERY LIKELY, BECAUSE SOLDIERS DIE IN BATTLE, MEN DIED NEAR THERE. BUT IT IS NOT A CEMETERY. EVEN IF IT WAS, IS SIMPSON CLAIMING THAT ERECTING FLAGS IN CEMETERIES IS "POSSIBLE DESTRUCTION OF VALUABLE AND CULTURAL HISTORICAL RESOURCES?"

My gosh, let's take down all the flags in military cemeteries from border to border and coast to coast, as they are DISTURBING CULTURAL AND HISTORICAL RESOURCES. GET THOSE FLAGS DOWN NOW!
It would be a good idea to first ascertain the character of the area where the Flaggers propose to erect their flag pole, and to evaluate it in terms of cultural and historical resources, so as to prevent the possibility of reckless destruction.
Ya know what would be an even BETTER idea? For you stop pretending you care about anything Confederate, go back to "history" or whatever it is you do, and leave HERITAGE alone. You don't give a rat's patootie about "cultural and historical resources" there. YOU ARE JUST DRIVEN CRAZY BY THE IDEA OF THE FLAG GOING UP, AND YOU'RE DOING WHATEVER YOU CAN TO PREVENT IT.
I’m sure various agencies as well as Confederate heritage organizations would appreciate answers to these questions. So would anyone who is against the disruption of Confederate burial sites.
DOUBTFUL, ALL ANYBODY HAS TO DO IS READ WHAT THE FLAGGERS ACTUALLY SAID AND THEN COMPARE IT TO THE COLOSSAL DISTORTIONS OF YOUR LATEST ARTICLE, AND OTHERS BEFORE IT, TO SEE WHAT YOUR TRUE MOTIVE IS. BESIDES ... WHAT BURIAL SITES???!!!???
And if the Flaggers refuse or protest this reasonable request, then we know that it’s not about honoring Confederate heritage or the sacrifices of the Confederate soldier, but something quite different.
IT'S NOT A REASONABLE REQUEST. IT IS A FRANTIC, GRASPING-AT-STRAWS, TODDLER-STYLE TEMPER TANTRUM THROWN BY A GROWN MAN WHO IS INFURIATED THAT THE FLAGGERS EXIST, AND DOUBLY ENRAGED THAT THEY'RE PUTTING THIS FLAG UP.
Update: For those of you who are concerned about this possible threat to Virginia’s cultural and historic resources, you may want to contact Kristin Kirchen (kristin.kirchen@dhr.virginia.gov) at Virginia’s Department of Historic Resources.
Have you called, Simpson?  If so, do tell us about your conversation with Kristin Kirchen. Tell us what she said. If you haven't called... why not?

==========UPDATE  UPDATE  UPDATE===========

Comments from Crossroads:

Flamethrower:
Connie’s denying that the site is a burial ground.

Well, duh. I'm going by the extremely likelihood that the Virginia Flaggers, when looking at a piece of ground can, you know, recognize a cemetery by... oh ... I don't know ... HEADSTONES... you know, granite, marble, etc, about a foot wide and two feet high, with names, dates and other info etched into the surface....  Since they didn't say they're planning to raise the flag in a cemetery, it is a logical conclusion that the spot is not a cemetery.

Brooks D. Simpson;
The fact is that no one knows what might or might not be there. After all, the Flaggers themselves made claims about the historical nature of the site.

Someone may know.  Just because WE don't know, that doesn't mean nobody knows.

Besides "historical nature" and "burial ground" are not synonyms.

Besides again, the Virginia Flaggers did not used the term "historic nature" of the site in the Times Dispatch article. This statement: The site is particularly significant because Confederate troops are believed to have camped in and around the area during the Bermuda Hundred campaign, is attributed to Susan Hathaway by the Times Dispatch. It doesn't say "historic nature." It says, "particularly significant."


What exactly are Connie’s credentials for ascertaining (a) that her fellow Flaggers are full of hot air (b) the significance of the ground in question? Would you take her at her word? For her to make this claim, she’d have to identify the site and open it to inspection to verify her claim. Otherwise, her assertion is worthless.

Pay attention, Simpson and Flamethrower.. Simpson wrote "... and the disturbance of Confederates laid to rest in the area..." the first claim that there are graves, or a cemetery, on the plot where the flag will go up -- a claim not mentioned in any news report I have read.

My statement, "It is not a cemetery," is the logical conclusion to be drawn from information that has been reported in the Times-Dispatch and elsewhere. People said there were camps and battles nearby. Because soldiers die in battle, it is a logical conclusion that men died in the area. However, there were no reports of people claiming that Confederates killed in battle were "laid to rest" there. Ergo, it is not a cemetery.


After all, if she asks how could I know (when I’ve said I don’t, and that it’s an open question), how does she know for sure?

You made a gigantic leap from Susan's comment, "particularly significant," to "Confederates laid to rest" and "Confederate burial sites." There is no indication in the news reports that anybody knows, suspects or believes there are cemeteries or graves located where the flag will go up, or even in the vicinity. This is an extremely transparent attempt on your part to smear and harass the Virginia Flaggers.

Oops. Not working.

_________________
Images: U.S. Government

11 comments :

  1. You just don't know the first thing about archeology etc. that should be conducted in places like this before people build on the land.

    I wonder if the VA. Flaggers have even got a building permit?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Corey, what if the owner of the land had decided to build something on it? Would you be asking all these questions? Heck, no, you likely wouldn't even KNOW about it. But because the Flaggers, whom you hate, are putting up a flag that you hate, you're suddenly concerned about flippin' ARCHEOLOGY?

    ReplyDelete
  3. Just look at those flags desecrating these gravesites! What the heck happened, did somebody just thrust a shovel in the ground, dig, and start building?!

    Excellent work Connie. Once again you have exposed Simpson's very limited range as a "scholar". The truth is, Simpson seems to be able to memorize some information, and then regurgitate what he has memorized, but he displays almost no critical thinking ability at all. He is very, very unimpressive as an intellectual, and even less impressive as a human being.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I would imagine it is the process of getting a building permit in historical areas of the country.

    Don't want to bulldoze a important piece of history...er...heritage.

    ReplyDelete
  5. If during the excavation for the foundation of the Flag pole any evidence of historical significance is found, construction should stop.
    The State should then be notified.
    I've dug a lot of footers for buildings and that's the way it works.

    ReplyDelete
  6. So, where were you with all your concern about archeology and history when the freaking Interstate was built?

    ReplyDelete
  7. You know what, Dave. I would guess that Corey and Simpson haven't dug a lot of footers for buildings....

    ReplyDelete
  8. If it was the other way around I guess you could call in the Archaeologist and tell em, See that red flag, I'm wanna dig a ditch four foot wide, 15 foot long,3 foot deep with a 12 foot deep 38 inch diameter hole in the center. And you could have em dig the foundation for you.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Yes - the flaggers did say that the intended flag site was a confederate burial ground. If you lived in Virginia, and not Florida, you would know this.

    Yes - the Historical Society in the area would have to step in regarding any claim of this nature in order to recover any artifacts of historical significance.

    When I-95 was built, it was an incredible endeavor that now unites the East Coast - one would highly doubt that bones were their priority at that time.

    Again, if you didn't live in Florida, you would be familiar with the latest Virginia Flagger claims.

    ReplyDelete
  10. As for a permit to erect an object of this size - the confederate flag - yes, a permit is required. Neighboring homes cannot simply erect enormous structures beside a major thruway without a permit. The laws apply to everyone because we are ONE state, not two.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Lena, please link to where the Flaggers said the site was a burial ground. Please link to ANYONE claiming that the site is a burial ground (aside from Brooks D. Simpson, professor of history at Arizona State University, whose claim we already know about). And, since the location of the site HAS NOT BEEN DISCLOSED, please tell us how all these people know this.

    If there were Confederate graves in the area, why hasn't the Historical Society ALREADY stepped in?

    So Confederate graves are important -- depending on what's disturbing them (huge, wide highways with wide rights-of-way okay, small footing for a flag pole and a few fence posts are not okay. Got it.)

    Well, since I live in Florida, do enlighten me about the latest Virginia Flagger claims. Make it later than yesterday evening, when I communicated with a Flagger personally, by internet messenger. Okay?

    Finally, who has said (1) they don't need a permit and (2) that they haven't got one? Do you know that they haven't got one? Do give your proof.

    ReplyDelete

Comments are welcome, but monitored.